tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post4188097388050251674..comments2024-02-25T23:01:07.257-05:00Comments on Target Caller: Care About PvE Even If You Don't Care about PvETalvorian Dexhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-11146066982643088972015-11-05T09:22:06.837-05:002015-11-05T09:22:06.837-05:00But Turamarth is totally right. Wardecs can be the...But Turamarth is totally right. Wardecs can be the most damaging to hisec corps and just telling players to HTFU doesn't work...and wow did this strike a cord.Nelson Allisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10732367455492100698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-84345234510039163152015-11-04T09:41:35.090-05:002015-11-04T09:41:35.090-05:00It's interesting that we've hit on a diffe...It's interesting that we've hit on a difference in how we use the word solo. For me, "solo play" by itself means, "engaging in actions that don't put you in contact with other players"; effectively playing Eve as if it was on single-player campaign mode. I contrast it with "players as content". That seems to be a different definition than you're using, and perhaps that's cause for some of the disagreements.<br /><br />I, for instance, would deem a single pilot ninja-relicing and data mining in hostile space to be engaging with other players; the threat to their success is human, not programming.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-91625719083923597062015-11-04T09:27:14.963-05:002015-11-04T09:27:14.963-05:00This is what I meant when I said they were 'so...This is what I meant when I said they were 'solo' also. They were 'designed' to be able to be run by one player. Any "player interaction" was solely caused by emergent player behavior.Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-43694877157220609582015-11-04T09:09:44.294-05:002015-11-04T09:09:44.294-05:00Yeppers. Thanks for the catch.Yeppers. Thanks for the catch.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-18967242849796117182015-11-04T08:49:13.767-05:002015-11-04T08:49:13.767-05:00I think you have an error in this sentence: "...I think you have an error in this sentence: "But, both of those arguments have been mentioned so frequently that they no longer persuade PvPers to care about PvP." Shouldn't that last word be "PvE"?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750779710647245446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-11874196923417279192015-11-04T03:06:02.897-05:002015-11-04T03:06:02.897-05:00Yet I ran a similar amount and only encountered an...Yet I ran a similar amount and only encountered another player once... Seems no one went to w-space to run them. It's not so clear cut I think. The gauntlets were solo in so far as you only needed yourself to run them, but competitive as you could be easily disrupted if someone came to do so. Jake Devlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-91183809887767621332015-11-04T02:22:47.167-05:002015-11-04T02:22:47.167-05:00Agree completely it's not IF you are interacti...Agree completely it's not IF you are interacting with others. But you were where? Lowsec? Null? I was in hisec and I ran something like 20ish of them also... and when interaction happened, it did do in std Hisec fashion, IE we raced for the BC kill and loot, in I think 4 of them. ALL the rest I ran solo and uncontested in any way.<br /><br />So we both saw different sides of this PV P&E paradigm. And I'm not saying I don't like that they were considered (1) interesting enough and (2) [outside of hisec] valuable enough to actually contest... that was amazing and all for the good of the game.<br /><br />I hope and pray for more of EXACTLY this type of thinking on CCPs part. PVE that can potentially fill the bill for both dedicated PVE'ers and PVP'ers... THIS is EVEs niche.Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-85113640263068148672015-11-04T02:08:39.911-05:002015-11-04T02:08:39.911-05:00Want to break the cartels? Limit the people on gri...Want to break the cartels? Limit the people on grid (the limit can be variable depending on space). If 250 goons form for battle and only 50 are allowed to fight, the other 200 will understand the price of blue donut.<br /><br />Also, slash the prices of ships significantly. As it is it takes hours to farm up a HAC, so why would anybody risk it (as if, taking a fight they might lose, and not ganking much smaller fleet) without srp the cartels provide?<br /><br />Oh, I am a goon btw, but not very active atm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-19394323024525153572015-11-03T21:19:08.885-05:002015-11-03T21:19:08.885-05:00We've talked about that quite a bit in the pas...We've talked about that quite a bit in the past, so I'll leave that be. But I will challenge you on one point... the gauntlets were not purely a solo experience; I ran about 20 of them, and in 15 I had to fight someone off to take the loot. In one case, I did a highsec one and was beaten to the punch by someone horning in on my loot... I admit, I was caught off-guard since I couldn't shoot him... not used to that.<br /><br />It's not solo gameplay if you're interacting with other players.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-20490302106926053922015-11-03T21:12:29.289-05:002015-11-03T21:12:29.289-05:00WoW is a fundamentally different game than Eve, no...WoW is a fundamentally different game than Eve, not only in it's mechanics and setting, but also in the kind of players it attracts. Eve is a crucible. WoW is a reach-around. To make Eve as popular as WoW would necessarily destroy what is unique and special about EVe.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-58555088001297038582015-11-03T18:36:20.069-05:002015-11-03T18:36:20.069-05:00Yeah... sorry... I just get so riled up at BS rhet...Yeah... sorry... I just get so riled up at BS rhetoric and misinformation... my apologies Tal.<br />(anon 12:40 can go... well, you know.)Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-60841399523650422162015-11-03T18:32:41.476-05:002015-11-03T18:32:41.476-05:00(1) You believe removing PVE would not be a death ...(1) You believe removing PVE would not be a death blow for EVE.<br />Then you really need to read up on the history of Ultima Online, especially what happened after "Trammel"... (seriously, do the research).<br /><br />(2) You believe removing PVP would be a death blow for EVE.<br />Again look at UO and then please explain how and why WoW has been able to lose MILLIONS of players and still have millions left active and EVE has never had more than a few hundred thousand...<br /><br />I'll tell you how and why for all the above... PVE.Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-40524873648950995212015-11-03T18:30:28.883-05:002015-11-03T18:30:28.883-05:00I disagree with this, talent doesn't happen an...I disagree with this, talent doesn't happen anymore because it's strangled in it's crib.<br /><br />In the bad old days the map was littered with "big" alliances, but there were also pocket sized alliances all over the place. Alliances that only held a backwater system or two that they'd taken over while everyone was busy fighting wars with other alliances. Anyone who really wanted to, and had a talent for getting people motivated could own space. Now most of those pocket alliances got crushed once the wars were over, but some of them grew to be big alliances and gained experience as they went naturally. There was "On the bench" talent everywhere.<br /><br />That's all gone now. You can't just go off, get some people together, and take a crack at null. There's no low hanging aspirational component to null anymore. Instead you have to join and work your way up the ranks in an established player.<br /><br />And I don't know if anything will fix it. What's the high end meta now? Machariel fleets? How exactly is anyone supposed to touch that who's just starting out? Of course, that isn't even the real problem to fix. The coalitions have become very adept at managing a staggering amount of people. Take that away, and it'd all fall apart. But you can't. Instead they just get better and better as they gain experience at it. Which makes them better at reacting to anything within their spheres of influence.Halyconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16799009527451064697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-39708088178815150982015-11-03T18:17:43.623-05:002015-11-03T18:17:43.623-05:00Wait... EVE has sound????Wait... EVE has sound????Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-27918803208385544742015-11-03T18:05:26.083-05:002015-11-03T18:05:26.083-05:00The content of this last post was good, and I didn...The content of this last post was good, and I didn't want to lose it, but let's keep the conversation civil, folks. Let's argue with ideas.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-3325534974725359442015-11-03T17:50:54.409-05:002015-11-03T17:50:54.409-05:00"Fighting back against war deccers is somethi...<i>"Fighting back against war deccers is something future leaders would jump at the chance for."</i> you really don't remember being a noob do ya? Cause I do and that statement is as much crap as anything Gevlon has ever said. We were Wardecced in my early days and we HATED it... and no, our CEO did not jump a the chance...<br /><br />And I LOVE this... <i>"It's really not hard to get a dozen newbies in to catalysts to take out a war dec targets ship. You don't need lots of people or isk to effectively fight against a wardec corp."</i><br /><br />Oh dear god what crap... you really did start playing EVE as a 4 year Vet didn't you? No it really isn't hard to get your corpmates together and in T1 fitted Cats... The Defending corp is not the problem or the solution...<br /><br />ALL Wardeccers are Master of Dock Games. NONE of them EVER undocked when we were inna fleet sitting insystem or on their porch... they undocked in alts and trolled in local about how silly and sad we were then they either clone jumped to another system or logged on alts in nullsec and went ratting.<br /><br />The part, <i>"...effectively fight..."</i> is bullshit and shows you<br />(1) either know nothing at all of what you are talking about or, you<br />(2) are one of them and want to spew out as much disinformation as possible... My vote is on #2.<br /><br />That's the broken part of War Decs... The Deccers are almost exclusively vets who are good at EVE and they prefer deccing noobs and casual PVE focused players. They are not looking for actual fights good or bad, they just want easy low risk waffle stomp kills.Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-3030442705156155992015-11-03T12:48:07.990-05:002015-11-03T12:48:07.990-05:00Uh...no, the issue is that Eve has a PvE experienc...Uh...no, the issue is that Eve has a PvE experience from over 10 years ago and hasn't really evolved. The danger from potential gankers is one of the few things that actually keeps you from nodding off.<br /><br />Fighting back against war deccers is something future leaders would jump at the chance for. It's really not hard to get a dozen newbies in to catalysts to take out a war dec targets ship. You don't need lots of people or isk to effectively fight against a wardec corp.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-31500440754615847582015-11-03T11:19:26.785-05:002015-11-03T11:19:26.785-05:00Me too. The third-order consequences of very poor...Me too. The third-order consequences of very poor newbie retention are killing organizations through a lack of leaders (first two being 1) players leaving, 2) fewer targets)).Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-69688689151692536682015-11-03T11:11:11.067-05:002015-11-03T11:11:11.067-05:00Many thanks for the linked reference to my post, a...Many thanks for the linked reference to my post, and more so for the thoughtful analysis. You identified even more reasons for devoting developer time and effort on PvE in EVE Online - it's good for every type of player and preferred play style. I sincerely hope that CCP makes it a priority, once Citadel is delivered.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750779710647245446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-88580811315859068822015-11-03T10:26:37.476-05:002015-11-03T10:26:37.476-05:00You're absolutely right; the rewards players g...You're absolutely right; the rewards players get will directly affect how meaningful content is. Look at the Blood Raider sites... that was a direct result of the skill bonus.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-6322714685245929262015-11-03T10:09:26.525-05:002015-11-03T10:09:26.525-05:00drifters could provide meaningful content in Eve. ...drifters could provide meaningful content in Eve. Have them be more versatile, allow them to roam with increasing hostility if different drifter roams merge together, and allow them to hunt/attack player assets in low/null sec (including stations or citadels when those come out).<br /><br />Rewards for highsec kills would be LP, lowsec and null will be better drops.<br /><br />This method should help with the player's involvement and growth manifest more quickly due to the increasing difficulty and better AI. Only thing CCP needs to do is make it worth the risk. If killing the drifter does nothing for the player, then it isn't worth engaging.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-14976112293535727842015-11-03T09:48:35.566-05:002015-11-03T09:48:35.566-05:00I still believe that, from a "value to the ga...I still believe that, from a "value to the gameworld" perspective, the effects of PvE can be seeded. Nothing can replace the experience of a player fighting another player in PvP; machine logic cannot and never will be able to compete.<br /><br />The quote you cited came from my post about the types of player activity that lead to the deepest player engagement (long-term subscription and significant amounts of ripples affecting other players). I still firmly believe a PvP player generally rates much higher on the "Index of Engagement" than a PvE player playing solo, and CCP's data agrees.<br /><br />But, as I said in the article, most players aren't used to as intense of an experience as Eve is; they're used to bubblegum and candy canes and hand-holding as you cross the street. No one's born a Nietzschean. We have to develop into it. PvE is a means of keeping players "tackled" by Eve, if you will, long enough for them to explore the real content that hits right at Eve's value proposition: player-generated content. So, it is important as an intermediate step.<br /><br />Two separate arguments; one is about an end-state and coming up with a single, "top dog" activity to keep players engage long-term. The other is about a transitional activity.<br /><br />Everyone believes college is an essential educational step, but only an idiot would trust an academic to come up with solutions to real-world problems.<br /><br />To clarify, though, I don't believe I said, "We could lose PvE without being any worse off." I said that the effects of PvE - modules, mindeals, components, and ships - could be seeded, whereas there is no replacement for a human mind fighting against another human mind. That's not the same thing as saying, "We wouldn't be worse off." Taking ANYTHING away from the game diminishes it, and that includes PvE. Only... taking PvP away from the game would be a fatal blow.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-1419174482859101362015-11-03T09:30:16.318-05:002015-11-03T09:30:16.318-05:00So you no longer claim PVEers could be replaced wi...So you no longer claim PVEers could be replaced with a machine and Eve's 'distinguishing feature' would be no worse for it? How inconsistent of you.<br /><br />"Without PvE, CCP can seed the market to enable PvP. Without PvP, Eve is a sh*tty game without a distinguishing feature. Which do you think is more important? You [PvE] can be replaced with a machine."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-84867999327665742812015-11-03T09:28:19.294-05:002015-11-03T09:28:19.294-05:00I love all of these four ideas you point out. Let...I love all of these four ideas you point out. Let's implement them immediately.<br /><br />Nonetheless, I do believe it's critical for profit to be found most in WH space, next in null, and finally in low-sec. I'd put level 4's in low-sec as well, exclusively. If you want a fun time with no stress but little to show for it, go to high-sec. If you want to see results from your action, progressively descend into hell. ;)<br /><br />However, I disagree with "the cartels" in your analysis. Why? because there is only one cartel anymore. All the others died. And even that cartel is suffering from a lack of bottom-up interest. Yes, the problem is self-inflicted. But can be remedied by disrupting the top-down isk supply that fuels the Imperium's SRP program. It's fixable.<br /><br />The bigger problem is the lack of talent developing "on the bench", or cutting its teeth in high and transitioning to low and null. That's not happening because players aren't finding anything fun in high-sec.<br /><br />So, make high-sec purely fun; make the rest fun and profitable.Talvorian Dexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349917611382684205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4159840807393856856.post-18559960655951881602015-11-03T09:21:00.294-05:002015-11-03T09:21:00.294-05:00Mr. Smit may have wrote a treatise explaining on w...Mr. Smit may have wrote a treatise explaining on why CCP should focus on PvE, but both of you missed or glossed over the key points coming out of that PvE roundtable.<br /><br />Though the changes they discussed may make PvE play more "interesting", the null sec cartel controlled dev's are also making it far far more difficult for high sec (Burner AI class NPC's dropping into a mission??) and wormhole players (NPC Drifters chasing after players dropping off blue loot??) to generate ISK. And don't even get me started on what they plan on doing to Incursions. If you think that the cartels will simply stop with raising the rewards for null sec and low sec Incursions, guess again.<br /><br />This is just another phase in the slow meta war against any income source the cartel leadership cannot control directly. The higher the percentage of the overall Eve income stream they control, the higher the RMT returns on the part they skim off the top.<br /><br />And you should really explore what has caused all this boredom in null sec. Bottom line, it is self-inflicted. goons won Eve a couple years ago, and everybody who plays the game for any period of time knows it.<br /><br />Gone are the days of a group forming, growing, and ultimately carving out a slice of territory. goons and the remaining cartels will either crush them, or demand tribute to allow that group to live, or simply absorb them into their RMT machine. <br /><br />Knowing that you will never have really autonomy creates a malaise that has set into the bones of all older players, and hence the exodus we have witnessed the last 6-12 months.<br /><br />The only path to real resurrection for Eve and CCP is the radical one: the complete destruction of the game mechanics that allow the cartels to be maintained. And that is actually very easy: go after their income sources.<br /><br />1.Eliminate moon production. <br />2.Replace it with moon goo found in asteroid belts. <br />3.Then randomize the appearance of those belts across all of null, wormholes, and deep low sec (0.2 or lower)<br />4. Finally, make all system sec status dynamic. The more activity in a system (industry, ratting, R&D, trading), the higher the sec status of a system rises. Conversely, systems of low activity slowly fall in sec status.<br /><br />These are the changes that should be discussed, as well as more interesting PvE. But we all know the cartels will simply not allow CCP to cut off their stable income sources, so Eve will trundle along at the levels we have today. I do note that post Eve Vegas there has been an uptick in the PCU, but nowhere close to levels from a year ago.Vince Snettertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00645892172885793532noreply@blogger.com